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TrueTheology.net • View topic - Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet Slave

Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet Slave

Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet Slave

Postby Rotherham » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:26 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:44 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:14 am

Hello W-E,

Since your response asks many questions, I will probably be busy preparing a rsponse for a day or so, depending on how much time I have available. I will list your questions separately and place an answer below each one.

If I miss something, just let me know and I will address it.

Take care,
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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:23 am

Hello Rotherham.

I can hardly wait, but take your time. It is fascinating to ponder what those answers might be. I wish to commend you, though for being the first Jehovah's Witness to attempt an answer. A breath of fresh air.
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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:28 am

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:10 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:05 am

Hello W-E,

I'll be responding soon, either later today or tomorrow sometime. I will be gone for a few days starting tomorrow so I will try and get my response up before I leave.

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:44 am

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:48 am

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:50 am

Hi W-E,

In the future, I would appreciate if you would let me make a response to your post before you submit another one. It gets confusing for those following along.

I responded to your prior post right above. viewtopic.php?f=48&p=7157#p7156

Thanks,
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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:17 am

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:15 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:09 am

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:58 am

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:13 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:49 am

Hello WE,

I'll be responding soon.

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:29 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:51 am

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:41 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:57 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:26 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:27 am

Rotherham.

You are AMAZING!

You are so determined to believe a lie, that you will argue strenuously, no matter how weak your arguments are. I will give you high scores for determination, but you are doing horribly awful in reasoning. Of course, I cannot be debater and judge, the audience must be the judge, but I dared say that because, forgive me, this is NOT an official response to your comments, but just a notification that I will respond, hopefully within 72 hours. It's very busy for me right now.

I will be praying for you, and it is FOR YOU, why I will continue a debate I believe is well and truly over, because you have not posited one solid argument to verify

1. How come Jesus appointed a proven false prophet and false teacher as a slave. (Teaching over 50 false doctrines during the inspection.)
2. How come the appointed slave was teaching that someone else was that slave.
3. How come the appointed slave did not know what the appointment was (first believed it was over all the master's belongings, and taught that for some 90 plus years)
4. How the appointment was done in 1919, but the slave taught the now believed appointment took place in 33 C.E., and the then believed appointment took place in 1919.
5. WHY it took the slave some 90 years to FINALLY discover who the appointed slave actually is, and what the job description actually is.

This debate is not about whether there is "ecclesiastical authority" in the church, and how such authority works. I do not question whether the Watchtower organization needs a governing body. How that body operates is questionable, but is not the moot of this debate. The question, in my mind, is, DID JESUS APPOINT THE PROVEN FALSE PROPHET AND FALSE TEACHER AS FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE IN 1919, AS CLAIMED BY THE WATCHTOWER?

Those questions must be solidly responded to in order to make the Watchtower doctrine make sense, but not even Rotherham can make sense out of nonsense.

However, because Rotherham can POSSIBLY be released from his deception, I will ask the Lord to give me the patience to clarify matters for you.

Give me a few days, please.


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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:43 am

When you respond, please do not forget to answer fully the questions that I asked you. Also since you provide a list of issues, I will supply a short response to each one to help facilitate your larger response to these things.

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:31 pm

You have listed the following issues:

1. How come Jesus appointed a proven false prophet and false teacher as a slave. (Teaching over 50 false doctrines during the inspection.)
2. How come the appointed slave was teaching that someone else was that slave.
3. How come the appointed slave did not know what the appointment was (first believed it was over all the master's belongings, and taught that for some 90 plus years)
4. How the appointment was done in 1919, but the slave taught the now believed appointment took place in 33 C.E., and the then believed appointment took place in 1919.
5. WHY it took the slave some 90 years to FINALLY discover who the appointed slave actually is, and what the job description actually is.

Each and every one of these items are nothing more than peripheral to the fundamental doctrines of Christianity as listed at Hebrews 6:1,2. I wonder if you will ever comment on those.

In fact, none of the items in the list constitutes doctrines, but as we have stated in our literature and I have shown through the quotes that I offered, these things are not considered to be written in stone but simply present our best understanding at the time of writing. Prophetic interpretations are not doctrines. Did you read carefully and consider the quotes that I offered? Everything you mention above falls under that same umbrella.

Think about it, the fact that the FDS represents ecclesiastical authority never changed in all of the adjustments, the only thing that changed was who exactly comprised that slave. That is a mere peripheral issue to the larger and more important overall teaching.

And naturally, as I have explained often, coming out from the wheat and the weeds would logically involve the ridding of false teachings through the sunteleia. The fundamental doctrines though have remained consistent. Rather than the church being error free from the beginning of the sunteleia, it would be expected to contain error and a weeding out process until the end.

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:01 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:41 pm

Please W-E, before I respond, would you please fully address the questions that I asked you?

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:55 pm

Although I still want you to answer those questions I have asked of you more than once, I went ahead and prepared a response to your latest submission. That way when you respond the next time, it will all be together.

The problem that I see Winston, is that the list of things that you have against us are inaccurately presented and because of that they are leading you to false conclusions. I will try and break this down for you again. I believe the following will answer all that you have presented. If not, please isolate what I have ignored and I will comment on it

At the time of the inspection, it would seem natural that if God and Christ were going to USE a particular people to spearhead his kingdom proclamation in the last days, (Matthew 24:14) then those who had protected the fundamental, foundation doctrines of Christianity, would certainly catch his attention. Would that not seem natural to you?

This is exactly what we believe happened in the first part of the 20th century for numerous prophetic, historical and logical reasons.

You may not like the fact that we believe those fundamental doctrines are what God was looking for, but it would certainly stand to reason that if they were, they would have found them in the small group of International Bible Students. If he approved of this group, then naturally, from within that group would arise the ecclesiastical authority, also designated as the "faithful and discreet slave" of Matthew 24:45-47.

You claim that because they had many false teachings at the time that this should have disqualified them from gaining God's approval, but let's think about that for a minute. Since NO group on the earth would ever be PERFECT in the things that they were teaching, who then would he choose?

Would he choose a group that had shown themselves protective of those fundamental, foundation doctrines, even though they needed correction on many peripheral teachings, or would he choose those that were full of error from the bottom up, teaching God-dishonoring and confusing doctrines, such as the Trinity, hellfire, immortal soul and the list goes on? THOSE false teachings directly affect the very foundation of Christianity. (See Hebrews 6:1,2)

On the other hand, those things that the Bible Students at that time were teaching incorrectly, all merely peripheral to the fundamental teachings, did in no way affect the foundation teachings of Christianity. If you think so, please demonstrate how the teachings listed there in Hebrews were adversely affected by those things that you have mentioned as false.

You claim that this is not about fundamental teachings and I believe this is where you err greatly. It is most certainly about the fundamental teachings, because clearly and logically, if there was to be an inspection made, that is exactly what God and Christ would begin with.

In the early 20th century there was a group of sincere Bible students who were organized enough to sustain a concerted effort to distribute the truth of those fundamental teachings as far into the world as they could at that time. So, if we correctly understand when the last days began, that being circa 1914, what would have been the most likely choice to spearhead the restoration of truth and the preaching of the kingdom good news? If the Trinity, hellfire, immortal soul, etc are indeed false, and we most certainly believe that they are, exactly who would he choose other then from among those Bible Students at that time?

So you see, the fundamental teachings are indeed intrinsically connected to our understanding of who the faithful and discreet slave would be because at that time, the proper food, the truth about the fundamental teachings of Christianity, were only being zealously promoted by that group. Who else?

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:17 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:09 am

Hello Winston,

Since my next response will probably be a bit longer than the norm, please allow me a few days to complete it. Thanks.

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:10 am

Sure.

No problem. I understand time constraints.


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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:24 pm

Dear Rotherham:

Hearing you have a long response TERRIFIES me, because there has been so much dancing around the issues, on your part, in my humble opinion. It is, to me, a classic case of circular reasoning.

Let's go again.

The Watchtower teaches that Jesus and His Father CAME in 1914 and did a five year inspection, after which he appointed Rutherford and others taking the lead in the then Watchtower organization, as THE faithful and discreet slave mentioned in Matthew 24:45-47.

Here's what I want to you address:

1. Does an all-knowing God need to do a FIVE-YEAR inspection to determine which church is providing proper spiritual food?
2. Did Jesus appoint Rutherford and company as the FDS mentioned in Matthew 24?
3. If yes, was it a secret appointment? How were they appointed?
4. How come Rutheford did know they were appointed?
5. How come they were confidently teaching that Russel was the slave. Do you mean to tell me that Jesus did not tell them?
6. How come they believed that the appointment you now teach took place in 1919, actually took place in 33 C.E.?
7. When did they know the appointment took place in 1919, and how come they felt that that appointment was over ALL the Master's belonging.
8. When did a slave, singular, become a body of people? Tell you what, please spare us the answer to Question 8. There is just so much nonsense that I can be bothered with.

Please spare me long, cirular reasoning about peripheral things and answer those questions.

After all, that is the ONLY way you can make sense of the doctrine.

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:11 pm

Hello Winston,

This just keeps happening. I hoped that you would show restraint and allow me to respond before you add more or change the direction of the discussion. But, seeing as how that has happened again, I will incorporate in my response this latest submission as well. Unfortunately its not likely to make it any less short in its presentation. Again, there are some busy days ahead so it will take a while to address everything that I want to address. I will try to keep it as short as I possibly can and still cover the issues that need to be covered.

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:02 pm

Please understand, Rotherham, that I do not mind long. You may elect to be as lengthy and and as detailed as you wish to be. It is not length that bothers me, it is IRRELEVANCE.

All I am asking is that you do what I believe you have failed to do so far, zoom in on what the Watchtower teaches and respond to the questions I ask - necessary questions - to back up the teaching - not about ecclesiastical authority, or what is fundamental Christian doctrines - but rahter, address the DIERCT questions asked about the WATCHTOWER TEACHING regarding the 1919 event of Jesus appointing the slave.

And, please, given the Watchtower's track record of faulty Biblical conclusions, please give us more of the BIBLICAL EVIDENCE and less of the organization's take on the matter, if possible.


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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:31 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:44 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:02 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:13 am

It'll be a couple of days before I respond. No time.

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:50 am

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:40 pm

Ok. Rotherham:

This is enough. It is taking too much time to respond to these comments of yours. The time has come to do some video responses.

Better to focus on a ministry with thousands of viewers than a forum that seldom has two persons online at any given time.

Your thinking is likely to be the thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses globally. It's time to address them in a wider audience.

In the meantime, here are some questions for you to ponder:

Why did the organization wrongly teach that

(a) the return of Christ took place in 1874;
(b) Christians would be destroyed by millions in 1918;
(c) Millions alive in 1920 would never die;
(d) Abraham and others would have been resurrected in 1925;
(e) The last days began in 1799 (or some other year if I got that wrong - but not 1914)
(f) it is a sin to accept vaccines,
(g) Michael the archangel was the pope;
(h) young people cold never complete any career pursuits in the 1960s because the end of this system of things would come before;
(i) Paul was spearheading a work of evangelism that would end in the 20th century
(c) the appointment of the faithful slave to serve food took place in 33 C.E., and the appointment mover all the Master's belongs took place in 1919?

I submit to you ONE ANSWER.

Reading in to the THE SCRIPTURES, things that were never there. Tat is exactly what you are CONTINUING to do, Rotherham. I would have thought that by now you would have learned that the Watchtower interpretations of Scriptures are not a safe way to go.

Stay tuned for the videos, they will explain.



Winston
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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:48 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Watchtower Exam » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:55 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:33 pm

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:06 pm

Hello Winston,

Well Rutherford certainly misspoke, of that there is no doubt. But again, during all of this time, Rutherford acknowledged that no one had inspired or infallible information so one should weigh the statements together.

He was no doubt confusing the evidence that manifested itself circa 1914 (World War 1, Spanish Influenza, etc.) and mistakenly assigned it to his understanding of 1874 as the start of the parousia, when it was actually later. So, from our understanding, he would have been seeing the right signs identifying the parousia but assigned them to the wrong starting point. Also, keep in mind that he himself corrected the view that 1874 was the beginning of the parousia.

But again I ask you. Why did God use Moses when he constituted himself a false deliverer and killed a man for the wrong reason? What about him did God see salvable and usable as a leader?

Rutherford was far too impetuous and bold in his statements of belief, of that there is no dispute, but, does that mean that God was under compulsion to reject him? Nathan was impetuous too and convinced David that God was with him in building the temple. God did not reject him. He corrected him and continued to use him as a prophet. And certainly Moses suffered from the same premature impetuousness, so much so he was willing to kill a man to prove it.

If someone makes a misstatement or oversteps his bounds as a teacher for God and declares a wrong prophetic interpretation, that doesn't mean that he must be rejected and everyone else in his association much likewise be rejected. If he and they are willing and humble enough to be corrected than God can still use him and those with whom he is associated, especially if he always maintained that what he says is not inspired or infallible. The intentions were always pure, just like the intentions of Moses and Nathan. One could even ask, why would God still use David after his very poor track record? What was the deciding criteria?

Again, I know no other answer to that then those who had separated themselves from Babylon and were safeguarding those elementary teachings. Babylon was therefore out of the picture.

Regards,
Rotherham
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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:24 pm

Quick question Winston,

How is the JW history of prophetic interpretations involving the "end times" any different than William Miller, which the 7th Day Adventists(which you are) sprang from? I still say there is a double standard at play here.

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Re: Examining the JW teaching of the Faithful and Discreet S

Postby Rotherham » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:28 pm

Hello Winston,

Since it appears you are no longer using this account, I will be closing it. Let me know if you want that to change.

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