I'm back in town. Sorry for the delay.
Jesus was a man.
Bill gates is a man.
Therefore, Jesus as human is no different than Bill Gates.
Jesus created the congregation and therefore the first of the associated class.
He is the head and he holds it all together. By your own definition he is the First and a member of the group or associated class.
The same logic applies for Bill Gates...period.
Your own definition now changes again
and is prejudicial. Now you clutch at straws to get around your own definition and reasoning? Why?
You purposely distract and throw in a red herring fallacy, by bringing up God in a class of his own when we are strictly talking about Jesus. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... ed_Herring
God would in fact be the firstborn of all creation if he actually created it! But that's not what the text says here.
Because... by your own definition... only the one who actually is FIRST and a member of the associated class could be the firstborn.
That is why the second child that comes out of the womb is not a firstborn. Only the First child can be a firstborn. This same logic holds when a group is formed or created. The creator is the FIRST member of the group or associated class, therefore the firstborn.
Colossians 1:15 is not talking about creation happening at that moment is it?
If we were talking about Jehovah and said "by means of him all things were created". You would not argue that this means Jehovah is the one who actually created all things. But if the same language is used of Jesus somehow this same understanding no longer applies. If a surgeon cuts someone open, then the means is the scalpel. That means the surgeon did not actually cut, but the scalpel did the cutting. The surgeon by means of the scalpel did the cutting.
So Jesus is the means, so he is the ACTUAL creator. Jehovah only gets credit like the surgeon for guiding the scalpul. The same with Jehovah, Jesus is the scalpul, the instrument. The MEANS is ALWAYS the ACTUAL DOER. Can you find any circumstance where the MEANS is not the actual doer? Impossible, because that is what it means to be the instrument. We drive by means of a car. The car is what actually drives us. The means is the ACTUAL in all cases.
Back on point...
It is impossible for Bill Gates NOT to be the firstborn of Microsoft. He is the creator therefore automatically the FIRST. He is the first of and member in the associated class. So therefore Jesus is firstborn of All HIS
creation and also a member because regardless if there are two SUBCLASSES of creation (old and new) he is firstborn over ALL CREATION....ALL....ALL...
Both old and new.
YOU ARE STILL IN CHECKMATE
Show exactly how ...spell it out why Billy Boy can't be the firstborn of Microsoft but human Jesus who you claim is not in his own right God, can form a congregation and be the firstborn of it and a member in the class....but Bill Gates now can't be.
Jesus had to become the firstborn...and the firstfruits of all the dead. So he is FIRST OF the ASSOCIATED CLASS.
Romans 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he (Jesus) MIGHT BE
(not is or was) the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (NIV)
Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. (NIV)
1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 20-24 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures…20 But the fact is that Christ has been raised from the dead, and he BECAME
of those who have fallen asleep in death.
Notice Jesus is only considered the FIRSTBORN after the Resurrection, never, ever, ever before. You can't find a single scripture to corroborate your version of firstborn meaning first created at the very beginning. It is only NOW as a resurrected Jesus has he become the firstborn.
1. You failed to address that your version of Firstborn is logically impossible and makes Paul's statement nonsense by definition of your own "The HOTI clause".
2. You failed to address that you agreed Jesus receives the blessing of David, which part of that is to be MADE Firstborn. You can't be made Firstborn if you already are FIRSTBORN.
3. You failed to address that God on the day of Jesus Resurrection birthed Jesus as his Firstborn on that very day as his only begotten son.
4. You failed to address that your own FIRSTBORN definition is acceptable with Bill gates and have failed to exclude Bill Gates instead you dropped a RED HERRING diverting attention to God.
5. You failed to address that Jesus in Col 1:15 is referred to as an exact copy, a mirror image of God, NOT THE ORIGINAL, meaning this is what he was as of the PRESENT giving a slam dunk that FIRSTBORN here refers to Col 1:18 FIRSTBORN of the DEAD First of all creation as Jesus was resurrected into a copy of God and made Firstborn and all angels are told to worship him.
6. You failed to address that even if Jesus was by some stretch FIRSTBORN and created in the very beginning of time (which he was not), Col 1:15 would still not apply to your definition of firstborn, because Philippians 2 shows how Jesus gave up EVERYTHING to become a slave. He had nothing, not even name. He was given a commoner’s name. He became a slave. There is no way he would have kept any favor as to being a firstborn. He would have to have given that title and privilege up until he was born again. Which he was. Because he himself said...NO MAN MAY ENTER THE KINGDOM UNLESS HE IS BORN AGAIN. So the OBVIOUS meaning here in the PRESENT tense is when Jesus is BORN AGAIN, and MADE the Firstborn fulfilling the prophecy of David's blessings.
I owe you nothing more until you overturn all the six major points. But you can’t so …Checkmate.