by Rotherham » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:49 pm
Rotherham
R1: concerning A1-A3 and A9
In regard to Philippians 1:20-23 AFJW has asserted that I have provided no break between the two choices and the third which Paul regarded as far better. I disagree. Paul clearly states that he does not state his choice between life and death. That’s the break. When he claims being with Christ is far better, he is making a choice to which he prefers, therefore, he is in reference than to a third option. Otherwise, Paul would be making a choice about something that he says he does not choose to do. When Paul says that he wants to be with Christ, he states that is “far better”. The question becomes, “What is it far better than”? Well the only answer that AFJW could supply would have to be “life”. But then Paul is making a choice, which he says he does not do. Therefore, there has to be a third option in the mix.
R2: I may never convince AFJW of this because people often see what they want to see, but surely it can be seen that this passage does nothing to prove that Christians go to heaven when they die and await a resurrection. The view I am presenting is entirely supportable within the context of this scriptures and certainly within the overall context of what the Bible teaches about the condition of the dead. This really is at the heart of AFJWs position and this is something that I will then give greater attention to. If it can be shown that there is no conscious afterlife after death until the resurrection, then AFJW’s position fails in all areas.
R3: We can wrangle about the meaning of Paul’s words in Philippians, but nothing conclusive will come from it for AFJW. He may feel the same about my view as well. When this happens, it’s time to move on to a more conclusive argument.
R4: With that in mind, let’s move to another passage that I feel is far more conclusive in the matter. AFJW claims that when Christians die they go to heaven and are therefore not asleep in death. When I mentioned that the Bible teaches that the dead are not conscious, he stated that was not in reference to Christians. It would be, according to him, only non-Christians that “fall asleep” in death. However, 1 Thes. 4:16ff provides a different picture. Notice what it tells us about Christians who are resurrected.
R5:“13 Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant* about those who are sleeping in death,+ so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope.+14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again,+ so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus.+15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s* word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s+ voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.+17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds+ to meet the Lord+ in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.+18 So keep comforting one another with these words.”
R6: We can see that this passage teaches us the exact opposite of what AFJW has promoted, that being that Christians do not sleep in death. Clearly, as Paul points out here, Christians are asleep in death until the resurrection. There are far more accounts to prove that those who die, are said to be asleep in death, including Christians as is shown here. Again, the scriptures cannot be successfully employed to teach life after death, prior to resurrection. First Samuel in the account about “Samuel” does not prove that Samuel was conscious after death. What the witch saw was “a god”, a demon impersonating Samuel. God is not in business with necromancers. Matthew 17 also does not prove conscious existence after death as it is clearly presented as a “vision”, not a reality.
R7 to A4-A7: AFJW claims that the 144,000 and the great crowd are actually the same group. This is not a position that can be proved by any means as is testified by the many scholars who would disagree and when time indicators are considered regarding the two groups, it stands in contradiction to what is indicated scripturally.
R8: First let’s see if there are any time indicators for the 144,000 as to when they exist. Revelation 14:4 says that these ones were bought from among mankind “as FIRSTFRUITS to God and to the Lamb. Let’s think about that in relation to history. If they are the “first fruits” bought from among mankind, then their gathering by necessity had to begin in the 1st century CE, because as “first fruits”, their existence would have had to have begun no later than the establishment of the Christian church at Pentecost. So by necessity this group existed, or at least part of this group existed in the first century. Why do I say “at least part of this group” did so? The answer to that is because whereas chapter 14 shows they would have existed in the first century, chapter 7 shows that they would also be in existence, or at least part of them at the very end of the “age” or “system”. Revelation 7:3, 4 tells us that the four winds of destruction upon the earth would not be let loose until these ones had been sealed in their foreheads. So the time indicators for the 144,000 tell us that they have existed through a span of centuries, from the first century down to now, since those four winds have obviously not been let loose.
R9:But what about the time indicators of the great crowd? We are told clearly as to when this group manifests itself in history, again in the 7th chapter of Revelation. There, in the 13th and 14th verses we read:
“13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
R10: This group is therefore one that survives the great tribulation and is then led to waters of life, having earlier claimed salvation for themselves in verse 10. The time indicators clearly separate the two groups so it would not be possible to have the view that the great crowd is the same group as the 144,000 only described differently. They are two groups. One has existed from the 1st century on and the other exists at the time of the great tribulation, in which they survive, and are then led to the fountains of the waters of life.
R11: So not only does the great crowd not master the new song, they also are not shown as standing upon Mt. Zion with the Lamb, and they do not share the same historical placement. So not only would one have to deal with the historical difference between these two groups, they would also have to explain why there is a privileged difference as well. The great crowd cannot master the new song, nor are they shown upon Mt. Zion. Why?
A8: R4 – Unless Rotherham can show where the description “Christian” is given to one who later comes to believe in Christ, such as Abraham or one like him, we have again what is only Rotherham’s assumption. I submit that there is no evidence that the appellation Christian will be given to such ones, and it is instead reserved for those today who serve Christ. In fact, we have no evidence that anyone will bear this identification in the new age. There are no statements in Revelation 7 precluding the great crowd from membership in the New Covenant. Rotherham here continues to assert what he cannot defend. I’ll remind everyone that the New Covenant is not associated with ruling or being in heaven, it is for the forgiveness of sins. No text of scripture suggests that what Rotherham teaches. It is derived entirely from importing his own reasoning into texts of scripture based upon his own highly questionable interpretation of a few texts.
R12 to A8: All one has to do is look up the definition of Christian to know that anyone who is a believer and follower of Christ would be considered Christian. That would include ANYONE who is therefore granted eternal life. To claim differently is without support. As the last Adam, Jesus will be considered the eternal father of all those who live as perfect humans on earth, therefore, Christians.
R13: I have exceeded the word limit so I will have to address A10 and A11 in a later post.
Regards,
Rotherham