It is too bad that my opponent decided not to answer the three important questions that I asked of him at the end of my prior post. They are most relevant to the discussion at hand. It feels to me that my opponent is studiously avoiding getting into the topic of ecclesiastical authority and how it has been expressed historically and how it would be expressed in the last days. I hope that's not the case, but I will revisit these unaddressed crucial points below before concluding.
Merely sweeping away some of your opponents arguments as "rubbish" without explaining why, is not a defense of one's position. In fact, it is usually a tell-tale sign that your defense is lacking.
First, let's take a look at my opponents responses to Matthew 13 (wheat and weeds) and Eph. 4:11-16.
I said:
We are also told that Christian understanding would not be complete for a long time, way past the time of the first century.
W_E replied:
And where are you told that, Rotherham??
Answer:
Scripture, history and applied logic, as will be explained in what follows.
I said:
Notice the ramifications of Ephesians 4:11-16.
11 And he gave some as apostles,+ some as prophets,+ some as evangelizers,*+ some as shepherds and teachers,+ 12 with a view to the readjustment* of the holy ones, for ministerial work, to build up the body of the Christ,+ 13 until we all attain to the oneness* of the faith and of the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to being a full-grown* man,+ attaining the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ. 14 So we should no longer be children, tossed about as by waves and carried here and there by every wind of teaching+ by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in deceptive schemes. 15 But speaking the truth, let us by love grow up in all things into him who is the head, Christ.+ 16 From him all the body+ is harmoniously joined together and made to cooperate through every joint that gives what is needed. When each respective member functions properly, this contributes to the growth of the body as it builds itself up in love.+
W_E Response:
Please take some time to read the passage of Scripture again, slowly, Rotherham, and carefully. Note words like "fully-grown man" and "we should not longer be children". Paul is speaking about the INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS of the church maturing in knowledge of God - not about the church taking decades, up to 19 centuries to understand the things of God. Nothing here about the church shedding errors over 19 centuries, or a slave that would take a century to refine what he is teaching to the Christian congregation.
Answer:
My opponent has clearly missed the point of the passage. let's look a little closer. The scriptures says that the "gifts in men" would "perfect the "holy ones", who by the way, are identified as the church, UNTIL full and mature understanding would come about. It says exactly what my opponent denies.
It states that this perfecting process would continue until they ALL attain to the fullness of understanding for the purpose of UNITY in teaching, so different winds of teaching would not simultaneously exist within the congregation. What does that clearly tell u?. It tells us that up until the point where we have complete understanding, individually and/or collectively, a perfecting, which is a correcting process, would take place.
Again, a couple of questions for my opponent that need answered.
Do you believe that the church, any church, has reach its full-grown state of maturity? Is there nothing more to learn or adjust or correct? Is it now ERROR free? If so, please identify it for me.
I said:
Since we are convinced we are living in the last days, in the SUNTELEIA (conclusion) of the system, according to Matthew 13:24-30 and 36-43 (the parable of the wheat and the weeds), we would expect to have been be digging out from age-long errors of the weeds that were introduced. Notice what it tells us:
W_E:
Rotherham, my brother. The parable of the wheat and the tares is not about errors being weeded out of the church. It is about HYPOCRITES being weeded out of the church, when Jesus returns.
Does one really expect that "the sons of the wicked one", who is the FATHER of the lie, would not introduce falsehoods into the church? Is not hypocrisy often accompanied and sustained by lies and false teachings? How could it not be? Of course it's talking about people. How else would false teachings creep in? Via Dobermans?
The fact that false teachings would creep into the church is nearly everywhere expressed in the scriptures:
Notice:
"However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering." (2 Peter 2:1-3)
"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and days with tears." (Acts 20:29-31)
"But relative to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren, not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here. Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first - that is, unless the [predicted] great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come - and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition)." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3) (Amplified Bible)
"Dear Friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord... These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm -shepherds who feed only themselves... These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. . ."
"But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit." (Jude 3, 4, 12, 16-19) (New International Version)
"The Spirit distinctly says that in later times some will turn away from the faith and will heed deceitful spirits and things taught by demons though plausible liars - men with seared consciences who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by believers who know the truth. Everything God created is good; nothing is to be rejected when it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by God's word and by prayer." (The New American Bible)1 Timothy 4:1-5
So what happened or how did this apostasy within start? Again, notice:
Halley's Bible Handbook2 relates that in the 4th Century C.E.:
"The Church had changed its nature, had entered its Great Apostasy, had become a political organization in the Spirit and pattern of Imperial Rome, and took its nose-dive into the millennium of Papal Abominations.., worship, at first very simple, was developed into elaborate, stately, imposing ceremonies having all the outward splendor that had belonged to heathen temples."
Another volume, Great Religions of the World-3, reports that after the Council of Nicea in 325 C.E.:
"Now church and state were wed... Emperors helped shape theology, prelates dabbled in statecraft. Basilicas dazzled, their coffers bulged - and deserts began to fill with "anchorites", "withdrawers", seeking alone the purer faith of old", Beyond a shadow of doubt, a new brand of "Christianity" had developed. We shall now look at some of the heretical communities that emerged after the Apostolic period."
How any one who knows history and the scriptures, through the application of simple logic, could deny that the weeds would involve false teachings, is beyond me. Would my opponent prefer me to make a list of many of the false teachings that have crept into the church down through the centuries?
And as the parable demonstrates, these weeds would be taken out during the last days of this word, the sunteleia, the conclusion of this world or system as we know it. This is no doubt part of why the prophet Daniel stated about "the time of the end" the following:
4 “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.”
Now my opponent cannot find any problem with the fundamental teachings that I spoke of in my last post. He continues to harp on the misunderstanding of prophecies. Jehovah's Witnesses from the beginning have always drawn attention to the fact their prophetic interpretations are NOT dogmatic or INFALLIBLE. They are simply interpretations based upon their best understandings at the time. Which means what? It means that they are subject to correction, which is exactly what has taken place.
Our view of prophetic interpretations is nicely summed up in the following quotes from our literature at different times in history:
Mission statement of the Watchtower during the 1920s.
"This journal...is not dogmatic, but confident;
for we know whereof we affirm, treading with
implicit faith upon the promises of God. It is
held as a trust, to be used only in his service;
hence our decisions relative to what may and
what may not appear in its columns must be
according to our understanding of his good
pleasure, the TEACHING OF HIS WORD, for
the building of his people in grace and
knowledge. And WE NOT ONLY INVITE BUT
URGE OUR READERS TO PROVE ALL ITS
UTTERANCES BY THE INFALLIBLE WORD TO
WHICH REFERENCE IS CONSTANTLY MADE
TO FACILITATE SUCH TESTING."
Watchtower, 1879, page 38
"We do not object to changing our opinions on
any subject, or discarding former applications
of prophecy, or any other scripture, when we
see a good reason for the change, -in fact, it
is important that we should be willing to
unlearn errors and mere traditions, as to
learn truth....It is our duty to "prove all
things"-by the unerring Word,-" and hold fast
to that which is good".
Watchtower, 1896, 2080
"Nor would we have our writings reverenced
or regarded as infallible, or on a par with the
holy Scriptures. The most we claim or have
ever claimed for our teachings is that they are
what we believe to be the interpretations of
the divine Word, in harmony with the spirit of
the truth. And we still urge, as in the past,
that each reader study the subjects we
present in the light of the Scriptures, proving
all things by the Scriptures, accepting what
they see to be thus approved, and rejecting
all else. It is to this end, to enable the student
to trace the subject in the divinely inspired
Record, that we so freely intersperse both
quotations and citations of the Scriptures
upon which to build."
Zion's Watchtower and Herald of Christ's
Presence, September 15, 1909, 4473
"Someone may ask, Do you, then, claim
infallibilty and that every sentence appearing
in "Watch Tower" publications is stated with
absolute correctness? Assuredly we make NO
SUCH CLAIM and have NEVER MADE SUCH A
CLAIM. What motive can our opponents have
in so charging against us? Are they not
seeking to set up a falsehood to give
themselves excuse for making attacks and to
endeavor to pervert the judgments of
others?" (emphasis added)
From the book "Prophecy", 1929, pages 61-2
"Many students have made the grievous
mistake of thinking that God has inspired men
to interpret prophecy. The holy prophets of
the Old Testament were inspired by Jehovah
to write as his power moved upon them. The
writers of the New Testament were clothed
with certain power and authority to write as
the Lord directed them. However, SINCE THE
DAYS OF THE APOSTLES NO MAN ON EARTH
HAS BEEN INSPIRED TO WRITE PROPHECY,
NOR HAS ANY MAN BEEN INSPIRED TO
INTERPRET PROPHECY." (emphasis added)
So once again I would like to ask my opponent those important questions that I asked before. I hope he will answer them, as I hope he will answer the ones asked above as well.
"Do you believe that Christianity, in the last days, would need an ecclesiastical authority, a governing element of some kind?"
"Would that governing element be without error at all times in the last days?"
"Who, if anyone, do you recognize as servers of God's truth?"
Please answer, as surely I have the same right as you to examine my opponents beliefs. You see, it's easy to rail against the beliefs of others if you don't have to present a working model of your own.
Regards,
Rotherham